[overflow] Re: GHHS

[mbottorff@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx (Michelle & Boyd Bottorff)]

> > I do pretty much expect them to put up with verbal abuse... I think it's
> > unnecessary, and uncalled for, and I jump on them quick enough when they
> > try it, but if they're ever going to be able to participate comfortably
> > on usenet, they're probably going to need to start developping their
> > flame proof skins...
> > 
> > Er, that is to say, as an adult I've never had anyone try beat me up,
> > but I think they'd have to live like a hermit to never be the target of
> > verbal abuse.  <sigh>
> 
> Agreed.  But I'm not sure that allowing prolonged verbal abuse and
> never stepping in is the best way of building the self-confidence
> one needs to handle the sort of problem an adult faces.  

Granted.

I think the word "allowing" leads us into a lot of grey ground, though.

> For
> instance, I don't think I'm better than other people because I had
> a semester of junior high  in which the boy at the desk behind me 
> spent an hour whispering insults to me too quietly for anyone else to
> hear and they didn't.  

If my kids complained about this sort of thing, my probable response
(besides giving my child positive reinforcement,) would be to talk to
the teacher and ask if the seating arrangement could be changed,
explaining why I thought this was necessary.  But I don't think I would
remove my children from school for this reason, and this reason alone.

It might well be the straw that breaks the camel's back if other things
were going wrong, but in general things that happen at school are
essentially outside my area of control, and I have limited influence,
and if what influence I have is not proving effective, yes I would
probably ask my kids to "tough it out," for as long as the abuse
remained on a verbal level.  I don't think that is exactly the same as
"allowing."  Do you?  I THINK that my children would percieve the
difference. Hmm... Ben would.  Jasmine probably would.  Azure might not.

Personal differences make these judgements so complicated.

> I think that with a species whose cultures depend on social feedback,
> that permitting prolonged verbal abuse is teaching children to tune
> out others as much as they can, and thus helping create sociopaths.

But how can one "prevent" this sort of thing?  

When the abuse is physical, you have evidence of the abuse with which to
face the abusers.  But in my experience verbal abuse happens out of
ear-shot of authorities.

I suppose we could encourage abused children to carry mini-recorders on
their person.  <thoughtful>  The problem being that without the support
of the offenders' parents I doubt that confronting them with evidence
would result in anything more useful than a mess of lawsuits. <sigh>

> I also worry about the theory that pain is good for you.

It's a stupid theory.  

But then I ALSO worry about stuff like in commercials where they go "and
so and so was feeling soooo much pain, and then he took painkiller A and
now he can keep going with no pain!"  Pain is a warning system.  It
means something is wrong.  Ignoring it is bad.  But eliminating the pain
without trying to figure out what is causing the pain is just as bad.

Of course, in the case of children abusing children, identifing the
problem is difficult enough in the first place, and THEN you get the
problem of doing something about it. 
 
> I worry
> even more about people who quote Nietzsche as proving this. 

Since when did Nietzsche recieve the curse of the Faery Queen?


> My experience is that pain hurts and scares you -- and therefore
> weakens you.  I don't think getting rear-ended repeatedly by
> cars and trucks has made me the least bit stronger, physically
> or mentally, than those who haven't been.

No, I bet it hasn't.

But childbirth is supposed to rate pretty high on the pain scale, and
I've been through that six times without developping any particular fear
of pain in general, or childbirth in particular.

Pain always hurts by definition, but it doesn't always have to scare
you.  

A child who recieves emotional and personal support from their parents,
and can feel that their own home is a safe place and a refuge, can
probably endure much more emotional abuse outside of that home without
ill effects.  

Also, each child seems to have different built in tolerance levels to
different kinds of pain, which is something that as a parent I let
influence my disciplinary approach, customizing in attempt to get the
best results for each child individually -- but how can you legislate or
make set-in-stone RULES that account for that?


> My standard for judging "harmless teasing" is that "what goes around 
> comes around." 

I like that.
When my father teased me it didn't hurt.  It wasn't meant to hurt.  
When the kids at school teased me it did hurt, and it was meant to hurt.

I never teased my father back as a child...
... but I tease him now on occation.  :)

Michelle Bottorff
Lady Lavender

-- 
Family webpage:  http://home.sprintmail.com/~mbottorff/index.html
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